{"id":10676,"date":"2018-09-28T11:10:15","date_gmt":"2018-09-28T15:10:15","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/whatwillittake.com\/?p=10676"},"modified":"2018-12-13T15:53:14","modified_gmt":"2018-12-13T20:53:14","slug":"interview-anita-hill","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/whatwillittake.com\/interviews\/interview-anita-hill\/","title":{"rendered":"Interview with Anita Hill"},"content":{"rendered":"

This interview is an excerpt from What Will It Take to Make a Woman President?: Conversations About Women, Leadership & Power<\/a> by Marianne Schnall. All rights reserved.<\/em><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Marianne Schnall: What is your sense of why we have not yet had a woman president?\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

Anita Hill: <\/b>I think we\u2019ve had, and we continue to have, this skewed concept of what leadership looks like. Leadership in our minds, unfortunately, has a gender and the gender is male. We see that not only in politics; we see it also in just about every kind of business and different aspects of our lives, even in environments where you are presumed to be very liberal and open to change. And there are all kinds of cultural factors. I always talk about cultural factors, because I think very often when you talk about politics, you\u2019ll hear people say if women could raise money or if they were going up through the ranks\u2026 you hear all of these reasons why [electing a woman president] is not possible, [based] purely on money and, to some extent, on system. But I think we can\u2019t discount the role of culture in shaping our concept of what women can do.<\/p>\n

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“I think we\u2019ve got so many complex issues that cannot be resolved by looking at them from one perspective.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

MS: A lot of times this gets framed as a fairness or equality issue, but why is it important that we have more women there, aside from just basic parity for parity\u2019s sake? What do you think women would bring?\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

AH:<\/b> They\u2019ll broaden the information that goes into decision making. I think people tend to connect with and bring into their own circles people who are like them, so by bringing in one person, you are more likely to bring additional women voices into the decision-making process, and that\u2019s going to be better for everyone if the perspective is broadened. I think we\u2019ve got so many complex issues that cannot be resolved by looking at them from one perspective. And ultimately, allowing more women in will help make better decisions if, in fact, those women are powerful and in tune with and connected with other women\u2019s voices, and perhaps voices of people who have been left out of the conversation, including people of color.<\/p>\n

MS: There\u2019s been a lot of talk that there are also psychological obstacles that women impose on themselves, by not naturally advocating for themselves in the workplace, or these studies that say that women have to be almost begged to run for office. Do you think that that\u2019s also a factor?\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

AH:<\/b> Yes, but I don\u2019t know that women will need to be begged if they know that there\u2019s a system that\u2019s not rigged against them. So it\u2019s like a chicken-and-egg thing. I don\u2019t know that women would need to be begged if they thought that they were going into a process that was fair and that was going to treat them fairly. So what comes first? I\u2019m not sure, but I think you\u2019re right that women are going to have to take risks to get engaged, and I think they can build opportunities for other women.<\/p>\n

But then you ask yourself\u2014when you say to women, \u201cOh, you have to \u2018lean in\u2019\u201d\u2014how much risk are we willing to ask women to take without providing them with some kind of security that they\u2019re not just doing that for nothing? I\u2019m not sure where the point is where we start saying yes, we want women to lean in, but on the other hand, we also want to assure them that there is a system where it\u2019s going to be worth their effort if they lean in.<\/p>\n

\n

\u201cWhen you talk about people who do things that people perceive as really courageous\u2026 I think what they were looking at was not the consequences of doing a thing as much as the consequences of not<\/i> doing it.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

MS: Speaking of taking risks, I actually found myself getting a little emotional when I was watching the MAKERS <\/i>documentary, when it gets to the part where it talks about your role in history. I can\u2019t think of many people who took as much of a high-profile risk as you did. How did you find your courage and strength to speak out?\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

AH:<\/b> When you talk about people who do things that people perceive as really courageous, most of the time what motivates them is not the risk that they\u2019re looking at, of what might happen that would be really, really disastrous for them, but what\u2019s the importance of what it is you\u2019re trying to achieve?<\/p>\n

And I think for me, when I look at those things, I look at some of my role models, people like Rosa Parks and Ada Lois Sipuel Fisher, who, as a twenty year old, sued to integrate the University of Oklahoma College of Law. And in the case of both of those women, I\u2019ve read some of what they cared about and what was important to them, and I think what they were looking at was not the consequences of doing a thing as much as the consequences of not<\/i> doing it.<\/p>\n

So for me, when I think about the hearing, what motivated me to do it was bigger than the consequences of doing it. I mean, I knew that I had important information about Clarence Thomas, what kind of judge he was going to be, because I knew about his own behavior that really said that he had no respect for the law and that he believed himself to be above the law. In the situation I\u2019m talking about, it happened to be sexual harassment, which carried with it another kind of meaning, in that we\u2019re going to have somebody in a position of ultimate authority, having a role to play in deciding the rights of women and people of color, in cases of discrimination. And knowing that the law was going to be written by and shaped by someone with a disregard for it was what I was looking at. And that was the consequence, and I could have an impact on how that shaped and took place. That was really what motivated me\u2014it just outweighed the consequences.<\/p>\n

Now, I didn\u2019t know what all the consequences were [laughs<\/i>], and maybe that helped, but I think there\u2019s someplace in your conscience that says, If I don\u2019t act, then I will have been a part of something that I don\u2019t want to live with. <\/i>I would have been moving away from something and turning my back on something.<\/p>\n

You know that there are going to be negative consequences and, for me, I felt that I had the personal resources to be able to deal with it\u2014I had my family, I had my friends. I felt that I could weather whatever occurred as a result.\u00a0<\/span>And then I tell people, \u201cThen you pray a lot\u201d [laughs<\/i>]. You pray and you look to your family and you look to the people who love you and you have faith in God and you have faith in the people around you\u2026 and then you do what you know is best.<\/p>\n

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MS: There are so many lessons in your story, especially as we\u2019re talking about how women running for office, or just stepping out in any way, are sometimes subject to so many different forms of personal attack and scrutiny. How did you not let that get to you? What did give you strength during that time?<\/strong><\/p>\n

AH:<\/strong> Well, so much of the scrutiny was just lies. It was just outright lies, and even on the part of some of the senators, some comments and statements that were made were just not true. So knowing that I knew the truth, that was very helpful, and knowing that the people around me knew the truth, that was also very helpful. I mean, some of the things that they ascribed to me were just so untrue and so unreal that it was disturbing, but it also took away some of the sting because I knew it wasn\u2019t true and I knew that and I had enough people around me who knew who I was and what I am. So that\u2019s in part how I dealt with it. I wouldn\u2019t ever say that it didn\u2019t get to me, that it didn\u2019t hurt. You know, there was stuff about \u201cOh, she couldn\u2019t give testimony against an important black man,\u201d the whole racial issue, but that was not my biggest concern. My biggest concern was that the process was not interested in getting to the truth, and that was the only thing that was risky for me.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

MS: I was looking at MAKERS, <\/i>when they show that amazing footage of all the congresswomen marching to the Senate to demand that you be heard. Talk about the importance of having women in Congress! Do you remember how you felt about the fact that those women did come to your defense, and how important that was?\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

AH:<\/b> Let\u2019s just put it in this way: seeing that they were willing to, by going over to the Senate, sort of step out of their \u201cplace,\u201d step out of what their defined roles as congresswomen were, and approach the Senate, which was clearly outside of protocol\u2014had it not been for those women, there very likely would not have been a hearing. But if you look at the women who did go over\u2014Patsy Mink, Eleanor Holmes Norton, and Patricia Schroeder\u2014I mean, these were all pioneers in women\u2019s, gender, and racial issues. All of these women were pioneers, and they just knew, certainly before I did, why the testimony was of significance.<\/p>\n

MS: That was really remarkable. And in fact, Eleanor Holmes Norton always says that your case sparked the Year of the Woman.\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

AH:<\/b> Yes, it did. It also shows you that women are incredibly brave, and once they understand that they have rights and are in the position to pursue them, they will. Because even though the conventional wisdom was that women would not come forward, women in fact doubled the rate of filing sexual harassment claims in the year following the hearing. So to me there are so many lessons from that episode in history that go from the political lessons to the lessons that have to do with women\u2019s rights and rights enforcement, and even into our interpersonal relationships. The fact that women could now tell their families and friends about their experiences, it was a significant breakthrough for us, socially and culturally.<\/p>\n

MS: Do you think\u2014and we talk about this whole need for more women in Washington\u2014if more women had been there in the decision-making capacities, Clarence Thomas would have been confirmed?\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

AH:<\/b> Let\u2019s just say it this way: if the nine women who went over from Congress to the Senate had been in<\/i> the Senate, then Clarence Thomas would not have been confirmed. So women\u2019s representation is important, but I guess that is to say, the kind of women who understand women\u2019s lives and women\u2019s perspectives and the significance of the issues we confront in the country in general [are important]. If those women are in, yes, I think they can change the climate, and it would have changed what happened in 1991.<\/p>\n

\n

\u201cGo out, find something that you know is not fair, is not just, and begin to change it.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

MS: What do you think are the most important ingredients that we need in a leader today, male or female?\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

AH: <\/b>I think that most important is the ability to connect with the problems of people who are not like you\u2014who have been underserved by government historically, who don\u2019t enjoy the privileges that you do. So the ability to really connect with those people and design policies that will include their well-being\u2014with an understanding that as they go, so goes the rest of the country\u2014I think that is important and may be the most critical characteristic of a leader today. Because so often those are the people who are not going to be represented by a lobbyist or a very important vocal donor, so those are the interests that can get lost.<\/p>\n

MS: You have so much wisdom to offer, and you\u2019re now working with your students. What do you try to instill in them as they go off into the world? What do you hope that they come away with, and generally, what would your words of wisdom or advice be to young women today?\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

AH:<\/b> My advice would be to take the tools and the skills and the resources of every kind that you have, and go out, find something that you know is not fair, is not just, and begin to change it. In whatever way you know, in whatever way is appropriate for you, but don\u2019t ignore it. Don\u2019t think it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s job to change it. Confront it in your own way, and make it your job to make change.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a>Related Article<\/strong>
\nLessons from Anita Hill on Courage and Leadership<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

About Anita Hill\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

Anita Hill began her law career in private practice in Washington, D.C. In 1989, Hill became the first African American to be tenured at the University of Oklahoma College of Law, where she taught Contracts and Commercial Law. In 1991, she testified at the Senate confirmation hearings of Clarence Thomas, gaining national exposure when her allegations of sexual harassment were made public. Currently, at Brandeis University, she teaches civil rights courses. As counsel to Cohen Milstein, Hill advises on class-action workplace discrimination cases.<\/p>\n

Hill is the subject of Freida Lee Mock\u2019s documentary Anita, <\/i>which premiered in January 2013 at the Sundance Film Festival. Hill\u2019s latest book is Reimagining Equality: Stories of Gender, Race, and Finding Home. <\/i>She has also written her biography, Speaking Truth to Power, <\/i>and coedited with professor Emma Coleman Jordan Race, Gender, and Power in America: The Legacy of the Hill-Thomas Hearings<\/i>. Time<\/i>, Newsweek<\/i>, The New York Times<\/i>, The Boston Globe<\/i>, and Ms. Magazine<\/i> have published Hill\u2019s commentary, and she has appeared on many national television programs.<\/p>\n<\/span>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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